Info Interview: John Nastos

John Nastos, one of Portland's most prominent saxophone players.

If you like jazz and live in Portland, then you’ve likely seen or heard John Nastos. He graduated from the Manhattan School of Music in 2007 and has been making a ruckus ever since. Although, music is not all Nastos makes, he's also a talented programer. Need proof? Check out his pretty amazing metronome app, Metronomics. During our lunchtime interview Nastos was thoughtful and easygoing. Our conversation centered around the business of “making it” as a musician (part one below), but he was also open to my more personal questions about navigating a marriage in such an unpredictable career (part two coming later this week). So, without further ado...

Part One: The biz

Levi Downey: Thanks again for coming to hang out for a bit. I started to work on some of your lesson plan. Working backwards from the 7 to the 1 of each chord in Autumn Leaves has been challenging. Harder than I thought.

John Nastos: Yeah, knowing a tune to that level really helps. If you try to do that to another song you think you know well and you go, ‘Do I really know this tune?’ If I don’t, then how much am I faking when I’m soloing?
LD: What do you mean by “faking it”?

JN: Well, just like, ‘I am going to play this because I think it should work’ rather than, ‘I’m going to play this because I’m confident and I know that it will work’.

LD: Interesting. I’ve been thinking about that lately. I’ve been listening to my playing. It can be frustrating because I hear the same things being used over and over. In my head at the time I don’t remember it sounding like that.

JN: [Laughs] I know the feeling.

LD: So I have a bunch of questions for you.

JN: Go for it. LD: I recently read a book by Radhika Philip, Being Here. She is an anthropologist that lives in NYC and interviewed a bunch of musicians about how/why they create music. One of her many great questions is:

What is the intent that drives your music-making? Specifically the creative process of ‘I’m going to compose this, or I’m going to arrange this this way’.

JN: Interesting question. There is, at least for some people, an important distinction between what I’m doing for artistic purposes and what I am doing because I need to make a living doing it. For example, this video project I did with Clay Giberson, where we [filmed an original composition/arrangement] every day for a year.

One of the last Duo Chronicles videos made, featuring drummer Charlie Doggett.

The project [Duo Chronicles] came about partially because I was playing a musical. It was 8 shows per week and I couldn’t sub it out. There was no improvisation -- just reading. Same show every night. And I couldn’t play any other gigs because the shows were always in the evenings. It gave us this great creative outlet we could accomplish despite the sort of functional things we were doing to earn a living. I think he [Giberson] was teaching an insane number of classes at Clackamas Community College so he was into that same idea too.

We just put it online for free. We weren’t trying to make money off it. But, it also didn’t cost us anything really.We bought a camera and some video editing software. Overall, way under $1,000 to make. Which was much less than a CD would have been. And at the time, there wasn’t any sort of high minded artistic ideas except, ‘Okay, we want to do something that’s satisfying.

It wasn’t even like we were going to do something new. We did it because we like to write music. And we knew that elements of this were really going to push us because that’s a lot of material to come up with every week.
There are also other gigs that I play where I feel like they are really artistic and there are very little compromises that are made. I like Chris Brown’s gig for that reason [Chris Brown Quartet]. Everyone plays at a high level.  I like the charts and the musicians. There are other gigs where it’s just not that great. I’d like to swing the pendulum more toward the first option. Some people have the right idea because they’re like: Hey if you’re gonna try to build your own brand. And people want to see you, then you should play the gigs that put you in the best light.
LD: Yeah, but that doesn’t necessarily pay the PGE [Portland General Electric] bill.
JN: Yeah exactly. That gets a little tough sometimes.
LD: So you draw a clear separation between the “making a living” work and the “art” work. But, even then you might be happy to play some gig even if it’s not your favorite thing. But, at least it’s still better than an alternative profession where you might not be as happy.
JN: Definitely. Well, if I was playing 90% gigs I didn’t like, I might have a different opinion. But, certainly the balance I have right now is nice. I’d much rather do this. And I feel pretty confident that I could get a programming gig making a lot more money. But, then I wouldn’t get to do this and practice and all the other great stuff I love to do. So I hope that will always stay true, but who knows? I’m a little lucky, and have a skewed point of view on this because I’ve literally never had a “job.”
LD: No way. Because you were pretty much a professional musician from an early age?
JN: Well, I played enough in high school to make some money. Not a ton. Enough to have some spending money. And my parents weren’t like, ‘We’re not giving you any money!’ They helped with stuff like bus passes and things like that. Or to go see some shows. I always had enough money to see some music. I went to a lot of shows.
Then, I went to college. And I had a really good scholarship so that was nice. It provided a lot. My parents and grandparents set up a college fund, too, which covered the rest. So I didn’t really have to work then. And by the time I was done in college I was making a living with music.
LD: That’s like the dream everyone’s shooting for, right? Go to school, graduate and you’re doing what you love.
JN: It’s nice so far. If the jazz scene completely disappears, and I’m forced to then get a “job”, it could be a total disservice to me in that I don’t know how to function in the kind of environment of a “real job”.
LD: I see a sitcom in the workings: “John Nastos, in a the corporate gig”.
JN: Haha. Yeah. It might not go well. On the other hand, since I’ve figured out how to make a living as a self-employed musician, I think that if I needed to, I could be self employed in some other field. I now know enough of those sort of general concepts to make it work. Rather than just having to go do a corporate gig.
LD: Did you ever consider not coming back to Portland?
JN: Well, I knew I was going to want to come back eventually. Mostly because I just didn’t like the city [New York] very much. It really drove me crazy. Haha. Almost to a literal sense of going crazy.
LD: The sheer excess of the place?
JN: I guess. Part of it is that it’s just a really dirty place. And there’s no way to escape it. You’re just in it at all times. Yeah, I really didn’t like that. I felt like the highs there were really good. And then the general standard of living was way down here [points to floor].
I felt like in Portland, the highs weren’t going to be as high, but it was all going to be right around here [circles hand mid-high above the table]. Rather than being way down low most of the time. And it just depends on your personality type. If you just live for those high moments, then it’s the absolute perfect place for you. But, I would much rather have sort of a general consistency.
So, it didn’t take long. I knew by probably my second year studying there that I wasn’t going to live there forever. It turned into, ‘How long can I stand it here’. And it turned out that it wasn’t very long at all.
LD: So, you finished a four year program in three years [at Manhattan School of Music]?
JN: Yeah I did.

LD: Did you take a bunch of extra classes or have an insane workload? How did you do that?
JN: No. Well, a little bit. They had this really great program -- which is no longer available -- where all you had to do was learn all the curriculum for the senior year. You could just do it on your own. You didn’t even have to take the classes. And then you take the senior jury. I don’t even remember how the ratings work; something like 1-5 ratings. I don’t know if the juries actually made a difference. They’d say that if you get below a 2+ then you can lose your scholarship. If you were below a 3 then you could even get kicked out.
If you wanted, you could take the senior jury at the end of your junior year. Then if you passed, you had to do your senior recital. You had to take one humanities class every year which I did at PSU that summer. I was so unsure of my playing that I didn’t know if I was going to make it through the jury. But, it was worth it to try. I’ve always hated putting myself out there to the point where I might just publicly fail. So I waited and did my recital during the next school year. I had actually already graduated but hadn’t done the jury.
LD: Wait what?
JN: You know in high school when they won’t give you the diploma until you pay your library late fees? It was kind of like that.
LD: Haha. I see.
JN: Yeah, so I took the jury, passed and stuck around for a few months. But, it was funny. I was flying back to Portland for work.
LD: What were the gigs you were doing in Portland?
JN: Well I was definitely flying back for the Tuesday nights with Mel Brown. It seemed bizarre because I didn’t really want to be in New York, but I was subsidizing my living in New York with my work in Portland. At the time, there was a resurgence in younger folks leading their own bands and actually making some money doing it. Performing in more places than just Jazz venues.
If I could schedule three gigs I would have enough to make it work. Tickets were cheap! Like $175 for round trip on Jet Blue. So if I could make $300 bucks then I could fly back.
LD: So what year was this when you were going back and forth?
JN: 2006 and continued through 2007
LD: Then you came back to Portland and kept up the Mel Brown thing. And now you’re involved with many different groups: Stan Bock’s New Tradition, the Christopher Brown Quartet, and his father, Mel Brown’s Septet.

What other projects are you involved with?

JN: There’s the Ezra Weiss Sextet. Although that’s one where we had a regular gig at Ivories, which is now going out of business. Yeah, there are several groups where we will have to find a new place to perform. Also, I’m in the Chuck Israels Orchestra, the Kevin Deitz Sextet, and the Bobby Torres Ensemble.
LD: There has got to be some obscure one that you don’t even tell people about right?
JN: Well, there are some that have gigs that come around every once in a while. You know I used to have a lot of big band gigs -- back when big bands existed.
LD: Yeah that’s funny. There are actually like twenty or so big bands in Portland. But, they only exist when there’s a gig -- which is rare.
JN: The only one that I know of that’s regularly performing is the Bureau of Standards big band. I’ve played in there a few times. They play at Tony Starlight’s like once a month or so.
LD: Like the house band?

JN: No, they’re not that regular. One of the first gigs I got when I moved back in town was lead alto [sax] with the Art Abrams big band. And that worked about twice per month. The money was always pretty decent. And now it’s like twice per year.

LD: So you were probably on the call list for quite  few different groups.

JN: Well the Carlton Jackson/Dave Mills Big Band had a gig about once per month at the Secret Society and that went away this summer.

I subbed in some like the Woody Hite Big Band -- I don’t think they work much anymore.

LD: It’s really amazing how fast the demand shifted away from big bands!
JN: Yeah it makes the whole jazz education thing really sort of bizarre because in most schools one of the main focus points is on the big band.
LD: I’ve been thinking about that, too. If that’s all you learned how to do (play in a big band) then what do you do when you graduate and there are no more working big bands?

JN: And, yeah. You can’t even go listen to one. I think the only real way to learn how to play this music is to go hear it live.
LD: What about studio-type gigs? Do you do many recordings?
JN: Yeah there are a few producers that will call me for sax and woodwinds. There are a few gigs that come up here and there. There’s this one British producer that has only ever called me to play flute. He’s never called me to play sax. But, hey, I’m fine with whatever.
I don’t think Portland has ever had a really big commercial recording scene. Obviously there are places like LA where there’s jingles. NYC and Nashville, too. But, in the Northwest for whatever reason the big scene was Vancouver, B.C. They had a nice little session scene up there. Maybe not that big anymore -- but it was pretty big. Recording is a nice thing because you can do it during the day. It’s good and important to have some of those.
LD: Another question I was wanting to get to: What are the portions of your income and where do they come from? You teach, you’re on the call list for projects and you have the residencies.
JN: It’s shifted over time. I’m teaching more than I ever have before, definitely. In terms of what I can actually expect and count on each month then it’s probably pretty evenly split. But, a little more on teaching, then gigs, then the metronome app is there too.
Teaching is straightforward; more students, more money. It’s a pretty easy equation. There isn’t a lot of variance in the amount of money I make. Assuming I’m in town for the lessons. Like in February, I was out of town for a while then all the rehearsals for the Jazz Fest. So I just wasn’t able to teach as much. So that income was lower. Still, I kind of know what to expect. I’ll look at the calendar and know roughly how much I’m going to make in a month. Some students will cancel and I might pick up a new one here and there -- so I have a general idea.

Gigs are kind of like that. I know roughly about how much on my weekly gigs. I’ll probably work certain weekend days and it will be a certain rough amount. But that is the category with more unexpected income. [That category] can have a lot of variation from month to month based on whether or not [low or high paying] gigs come along.

If I get a commission to do an arrangement for someone, that’s great. That can be a category that might be zero dollars one month. And might be as much or more than all the other income. It’s the unexpected things that really make a difference.
LD: So that must be really hard to plan ahead.
JN: It is. That’s why I keep taking more students. It’s that baseline that I know I can expect. Then, it’s great when the unexpected things come up. Then I don’t have to count on it.
LD: So you mentioned the metronome application you built [Metronomics]. You seem like someone that said, ‘Most metronomes don’t do x’, so you just built your own.
JN: Pretty much, yeah.
LD: Was it always a plan to make it an application for other people [as well]?
JN: Well fairly early on in the development I knew it was going to be useful for me. And so I thought with a little more polishing, I bet other people would find it useful, too. I wanted it to be easy to use. So yeah, I spent another few weeks to make it presentable. Then released it and it’s been out for about three years now. Yeah, it turned out to be a good investment of time. Even though it took a bunch of time to develop the first few versions.
LD: Did you learn how to program while building the app?
JN: I learned how to program for iPhone, yeah. I had done a very small app for the Duo Chronicles [the video project with Clay Giberson]. But that was very basic. So yeah, I had to learn how to build it while I was making the metronome. I had done websites and stuff like that before. But certainly nothing to that scale.
LD: So I went to the talk at PSU with Ahmad Jamal a while ago. My favorite part was the last question Darrell Grant asked was the standard: “What kind of advice to you have for up and coming musicians”? And he replied with something like: “Always leave yourself options. Leave yourself more than one exit door because when there’s a fire, you’ll be trampled if you only have one”. He listed about six different revenue streams. So I can see how you seem to be doing that. I knew about your performing and teaching but I forgot about your arranging work. You have multiple revenue streams going.
JN: Yeah there just has to be. Kind of relating back to what I said about New York and coming back for the standard of living. I could definitely survive with a more simplistic lifestyle -- and that is not to say that I am even remotely extravagant. I am not. I spend no money -- But, I have a car and a house and health insurance and a nice computer and enough money to buy an instrument every once in a while. A level I feel relatively comfortable. Oh, and retirement contributions.

If all I cared about were practicing and playing what I want to play, and I didn't care about all those other sorts of comfort things, I’m sure I would make less money and spend less money. But, I’d rather just work a little harder and have those things.

LD: That’s great to hear you’re really making it work. It’s not like it was a cakewalk to get to where you were, though.
JN: Yeah and it is definitely possible. You know some people my age… I just get nervous you know. Having exit doors is so important. I mean the people my age sometimes don’t seem to think certain amenities are essential.
LD: Like health insurance?

JN: Well yeah, but also even renter’s insurance. But, I guess the people that make me even more nervous are the fifty-year-old musicians that are making a living, but don’t have a plan for retirement. I mean it’s great if you want to work forever. And I hope they can; I think that’s something to aspire to as a working musician. But, what if something happens and you can’t play anymore? What are you going to do?
LD: You must have had very practical parents.
JN: Haha, yup definitely.

LD: Just a few more questions for you. Do you consider...

TO BE CONCLUDED (check back later this week :)